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Will all be saved in the end?
By James Knight
I want to spend a few messages analysing a pretty complex issue – the issue of salvation. Will we all be saved in the end? Will only some of us? Opinions are heavily divided, and have been since the 1st century. We’ve come to that point in the messages where the most devastating proposition ever conceived (Hell) comes face to face with the proposition that all either desire (Heaven), or wish it were true, or in a few cases, won’t entertain the idea of belief unless the latter is ensured and the former is made up as falsehood. Before we talk about heaven and hell, I think we ought to look at how Christians have probably messed up quite badly in getting ‘hell’ so wrong.
The two biggest extremist in Christianity seem to be, firstly, those who preach a gospel of judgment in which they feel called to terrify children (and adults) with threats of hellfire, and secondly, those who adopt an anti science position (denying things like evolution) and accuse anyone who doesn’t conform to their beliefs as being reproachable. On the surface this is a problem that opens old wounds, but I think the underlying intent of Christians who do this is probably based on a form of decency. In the same way that creationists have a genuine desire to act faithfully to the gospel by feeling threatened by an evolution that they believe undermines the great commission, I believe that those who preach hellfire and employ scare tactics are themselves overwhelmed with a troubling persona. The desire for moral probity has somehow been twisted into pathological insecurity, which is what is behind the threats and warnings. But the inferiority complex is compensated for by believing that in pointing others towards their sins they are doing God’s work.
As a rule, I have enough faith that humans can continually survive an in depth reality test whereby the quotient of beneficial growth can be met and sustained, even aside from threats of damnation. As always, the hard reality of the Christian life goes on for most, at least in as much as it is capable of surviving the best test by which conscious cognition probes for that reality; namely, that human beings comprehensively submit to (at the very least) a theoretical simulation of collectivity in individualism and individualism in collectivity. With that in mind, idle threats of hellfire are only likely to bother those who are too young to know how to protect themselves, those who are too intellectually pliable to have proper independence of mind, and those who are willing to subject themselves to the thrall of the powerful in order to lessen the burden of personal responsibility. To this extent, such people have a necessary emotional involvement, and they are not likely to be swayed by arguments that point towards the primacy of outrageous grace and love.
The driving desire to do God’s will is itself a good thing, and I would suggest that God’s outrageous grace and love is so grand, and His heart so spacious, that He will be able to see the best in you, in recognition of your good intentions, far more than other humans will. If I may be permitted to suggest something, I think focusing on love and grace makes us more emotionally astute, and improves our acumen for seeing the potential in others – therefore those who are convinced that for some hell is the ultimate destiny might be better deferring judgement altogether, and accepting that God can be trusted to see things that you or I have no business thinking we can see.
The cross is superior to any form of legalism. And it ought to be noted that drawing all to Himself is a fairly explicit promise that God’s love and grace will supersede His judgment. This is particularly relevant as we are also told that we will not be tempted beyond what we can bear – so I doubt whether the issue of ‘Can one lose one’s salvation?’ was ever really an issue to begin with. The Bible tells us to defer judgment and trust God, and that is the most we can do. But notice that this leads us to an inevitable precipice; we are plainly aware that we are not cajoled into deferring judgment and trusting God – if we choose we can preach hellfire and block out the signals of grace and love that Christianity is intent on sending. This means that for a time being, while we are still responsible for our own subjective interpretation or God, the mind has a big say on what sort of disciples we are. Even the power of grace and love in scripture won’t retain its force if we choose to stand in the way of it and allow our own insecurities to disfigure the gospel
If after reading this section you have found my demeanour a little frank, you will, I hope, forgive me. The reason you may sense this is because I cannot abide all this pernicious talk of hellfire. My first introduction to Christianity involved meeting people who were very outspoken in telling people they were going to be sent to hell if they didn’t become Christians. What I object to is that this sort of talk rarely does any good – I do not think that there is the first hint in the New Testament that Christians are to bring in on themselves to issue such threats. In fact, when it comes to judgment, all we are called to do is believe that there is nothing we can do to improve our chances - because we are told that we can do nothing but trust God when He says that Christ has it covered – our debts are paid, and they are debts for which He shows us that only dying would put us right with God.
For this reason I will disclose my position on universalism, because I do not think it is a subject about which we can speak dogmatically (either for or against) – it is worth drawing special attention to trusting God; in trust, I believe that what we are permitted to do is to ‘hope’ it is true, because to hope for the eventual salvation of everyone is the position that every Christian ought to be compelled to take, and one with which he or she remains beyond impeachment.
This rather has the opposite effect of Greek mythology, and perhaps that's why Zeus included "hope" in Pandora's Box - seeing it as shaving off trust and leaving hope that one's future is in one's control and not the gods. In contrast, St Paul was delighted to put his life in Christ’s control, and that is where he tells us true blessedness will be achieved - so in that sense 'hoping' for universalism is a hope that is beyond reproach.
So my position is this; I wouldn't call myself a hard universalist - I'm more of a 'Go where the logic and emotions take me' kind of guy - which has led me to believing that Divine love won't have done its work until all are with Him in Heaven. This issue can't be solved with a priori or a posteriori considerations, so the best one can be is a 'Trust God implicitly' proponent, then it is win-win. On a scale of 1-10 where 1 = Hellfire-preaching extremist and 10 = out and out universalist, I would consider myself a hard 8 or a soft 9.
As a general comment regarding universalism, the Bible inerrancy issue, and other perennial issues that plague our faith - it is quite clear from the way people defend their hellfire, their Bible inerrancy, and the rest, that they are riding a vehicle that they find all but impossible to abandon, even though it must be known subliminally that they in control of an old rust bucket that needs new tyres and a most of the engine parts replacing. This is because these viewpoints are almost entirely cultural or locally fostered. If one comes from a church or a background then those beliefs will be like the old family car that the head of the house just will not trade in, and continues to insist that that car will never pack in. The healthiest escape from this stasis is to endeavor to cultivate a studied detachment from the vehicle(s) you're driving. This is a committed declaration for an MOT trial, if you like.
I think history clearly shows that the idea of this eternal torment with literal pain and flame-fuelled suffering occurred when pagan religions became mixed into Christian cultures, and clearly draining this swamp has proved pretty difficult, particularly when so many power hungry control freaks try to keep it in for their own horrible personal gain. Those who preach the worst kinds of hell are mostly those with the most hellish personality. But clearly, this is why Christ was so against religion, and His warnings so prescient, because God is love, and it is through a ‘relationship’ with Him that this love blesses and develops, and it is through ‘religion’ that this blessing is retarded and disfigured.
God is love, He is not the God of man's religion, the scriptures are very clear in speaking about all the apostasy of religion, because religion is modeled after man's disfigured perception of God used for their own ways, whereas relationship is modeled after God’s own heart for His people – those who have seen God in Christ have seen the real nature of the Father, not as some megalomaniac tyrant, but as a God of supreme love and grace – a God who would become what we are so that we could become like Christ.
I think hell, that is, the real reality of hell, will have nothing to do with flames and torture (that’s just a silly interpretation) the real pain of hell will be, I presume, rather like human heartbreak but on the grandest scale of all – a place absent of God, where one has chosen to live away from Him – a state of privation; a place where the true and real absence of God is fully realised, and where a person's creaturely position - that of being created to know God and to enjoy heavenly bliss - is made known. T.S. Eliot captured the pain of this realisation, in his poem ‘Little Gidding’, from the ‘Four Quartets’ by speaking about being in the presence of God’s love, and how it is only love that discharges us from sin and error:
The dove descending breaks the air With flame of incandescent terror Of which the tongues declare The one discharge from sin and error. The only hope, or else despair Lies in the choice of pyre of pyre— To be redeemed from fire by fire.
Who then devised the torment? Love. Love is the unfamiliar Name Behind the hands that wove The intolerable shirt of flame Which human power cannot remove. We only live, only suspire Consumed by either fire or fire.
That is why, when it comes to fear of hell, I abhor all this scare-talk – because it is so far from the true answer of love. I suppose the only thing I could say that would constitute a justification for some kind of warning would be that if God didn’t make it known what awesome potential we have with Him we would have no urgency to come to Him and perhaps even no tangible reason to think about our eternal destination. We do not have a docile Sky-Uncle who one can lock away under the stairs when the Christmas party starts, rather we have a supremely powerful Father God who has great things for us should we choose to accept them.
And presumably, the torment of Hell can only be quantified as a comparison to the glory of Heaven, just as the feeling of not being in love is only felt in its fullness when the absence of that love is most tangible. Only when the heart is broken does the absence of love become unbearable, and I presume the torment of hell will be of that kind. Although the Bible clearly intimates that Hell will be an awful place, I really do think that it is a big mistake for a man to recognise that the God he worships is all-loving (as seen in the person of Jesus) and then go on to contradict himself by saying that such a God could subject finite humans to eternal torture. I’m amazed that so few Christians can see the contradiction here, particularly as so many atheists can see it quite clearly, and I don’t really know what those who preach hellfire are getting out of it – they certainly do not seem like content believers.
Christ is all about inclusion – the gruesome end to His life is perhaps so shocking that all cannot fail to be affected by it. Scripture says His suffering was greater than that of any man, and I can’t help but think in the deepest parts of our most inner-being we can all relate to that a lot more than many of us care to admit. The tragedy of the human condition is a cross we all have to bear because our empathy and solicitude locks us into it – and in the case of our own sins, ability to hurt each other, and willful neglect of the right path, such tragedy is like a bruise on the arm – it is easy to forget for a while but as soon as something presses down on it, the reality of it brings a dull pain.
That’s a brief introduction. Next time I will look at the big philosophical problem that underlies this issue, and how we can go about solving it.
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The views carried here are those of the author, not of Network Ipswich, and are intended to stimulate constructive debate between website users. We welcome your thoughts and comments, posted below, upon the ideas expressed here. You can also contact the author direct at james.knight@norfolk.gov.uk
James is a Norwich local government officer, author and Proclaimers church member in Norwich. Meanwhile, if you want to find out more about Christianity, visit: www.rejesus.co.uk
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| | | The Revd Matthew Firth (Guest) | 23/01/2011 00:52 | Thomas-
1. There are plenty of scholarly books which show how the Gospels are based on eyewitness testimony.
2. The Gospels do not conflict about critical details of the resurrection of Jesus at all.
3. You say that the resurrection 'myth' arose because they were all waiting for it anyway. No, they were not all waiting for it! Look at Paul's reaction to the preaching of the resurrection of Jesus: he persecuted the early church. His view was that to preach the resurrection of Jesus was heresy, because he, like the vast majority of Jews at the time, were waiting for a general resurrection at the end of time, not an individual resurrection in the middle of history. So, the fact that Paul (and the others) ended up believing in the resurrection of Jesus in the contemporary religious climate is evidence that it is a true event, precisely because no one was expecting it. So, your argument crumbles due to its lack of consistency with the contemporary reigious milieu.
4. '...Only in John does Jesus claim to be God...' This is simply not the case. For the sake of space (and time!) I won't rehearse them here, but there are plenty of examples in Mark's Gospel where Jesus claims, through words and actions, to be God e.g. Mark 2.5 - Jesus forgives a man's sins, and the teachers of the law understood that to be a claim to divinity (in 2.6), even if you don't. So, you are wrong. You need to read the Gospels far more carefully and understand what they meant in their original context.
5. You claim the 'dubious accolade' of Jesus being God was 'hung on him much later.' No, see 4. above. Jesus was understood to be divine before AD50, which is when Mark was written.
6. You claim that John's Gospel is not historically reliable. Now, of course, John is a much more theological Gospel than the others, but its foundation is on historical authenticity. Your view is way out of date, and many people are having to eat humble pie over this issue - like they had to do over Solomon's Portico!
7. You claim that I believe '...despite the lack of evidence...' No, actually I believe because of the evidence - there are mountains of it! In general, people do not believe not because there is a lack of evidence, but because they hate the idea that the evidence encourages them to submit to Jesus. So, because of that, they try to come up with counter-evidence as a defense mechanism. It may be subconscious, but that's what's happening.
8. You claim that the truth of a text cannot be argued on internal evidence without recourse to specific external witnesses. This is utter rubbish. I suspect that most people, if locked in a room with a copy of The Three Billy Goats Gruff and a copy of the Anglo Saxon Chronicle would be able to tell you which text is the most historically authentic. Similarly, if you were to lock someone in a room with Mark's Gospel and Homer's Iliad, I know what the honest response would be. So, OK, my argument is comic, but there is a serious point: internal evidence is hugely important, and the importance of it is only denied by people who have a big agenda. Mark rings true, the Iliad does not. But then we come back to the problem that Mark calls for a response to Jesus...and people don't want to...so they attack his text.
9. You display a soaring arrogance: '...You are the one with a prior worldview. Not me...' If you were to express that sentiment to any secular university academic, they would rip your argument to shreads from a thousand directions of argument. Your view is typical of the new atheists who claim that they are unbiased, logical and have no worldview agenda, whereas religious people are totally bound by their unthinking worldview. It is a ridiculous position to take, and I'm sure people reading your post will agree with me. We all have a certain worldview. If you don't admit that, your arguments will always be hopelessly flawed.
10. You mention Dennis MacDonald's work which shows that Mark uses Homer. And? Mark may indeed construct his Gospel in line with Homeric principles in order to undermine those very principles. It's a very good literary technique, which is used throughout the Bible, including in the Old Testament.
Your final two paragraphs are absurd, and read just like Dawkins, who also descends into comic polemic when he is frustrated that he can't make any headway in the argument.
This, by the way, is my final post in this thread. I've answered your points with reasonable arguments, and I hope I've shown, to people reading these posts, that one can hold a sound, critical and thinking Christian position in the face of some of the absurd lines of argument that have been displayed.
| | | | Thomas Newton (Guest) | 23/01/2011 13:32 | OK Matthew - I'll make this my last post too. Thanks for your time, it’s been interesting. Just a few comments on your points above:
1. Argumentum ad Populum again. I have read some of these. However there are also a great many more books with, in my opinion, better and more probable explanations.
2. They agree on some of the main points yes, but look at the detail - if these all came from eye witness accounts the differences are way too striking to be taken seriously. What they seem to be, rather, is different made up versions based on hearsay and urban myth.
3. They were waiting for the resurrection of everyone at the end of the age. This they believed started in Jesus - even Matthew has the long dead breaking free from their graves and wandering about Jerusalem following the resurrection of Jesus. Where are these people now I wonder? No, its fiction Matthew.
4. No Matthew, Jesus didn't say that He forgave, just that the man’s sins were forgiven. Don’t forget the story goes that God was working through Jesus. Jesus didn't claim he had the power to forgive sins, just the Authority. That is no more a claim to being divine than the Son of Man in the Book of Enoch "For in his name they are saved". The Son of Man in Enoch is a quasi-divine figure, like Melchizedek in the Dead Sea Scrolls. Above the angels but not equal to god. Enoch's Son of Man seems to have been a template for many of Christianities later descriptions of Jesus. So, not wrong at all.
5. Most scholars put Mark at CE68-70. Very few would go so early as 50.
6 So what if John knew there was a portico in Jerusalem? There are also passages lifted directly out of the dead sea scrolls in John. What of it? That doesn't make his 153 fish any more reliable as history rather than resonant Pythagorean numerology.
7. Matthew, you are still confusing the gospels with evidence. If there were external primary evidence that confirmed the gospel story then you'd have a point, but again you are using the gospels as proof of their own validity. I understand that this is all you can do as there is no external evidence to back up the miraculous claims of the bible, but really you can't have your cake and eat it. Again, did Mohammed fly to Jerusalem on a winged horse? The Koran backs this up. In your methodology you have to give the Koran the benefit of the doubt. Did Asclepius really heal and raise people from the dead? There are plenty of 'eye witness' testimonies to this. Of course not, nor did Jesus perform the miracles the New Testament claims.
8. Interesting you cite a 'newspaper' as your example. Today's newspapers are rather different than the literature of the day. Back then authors regularly included myth, metaphor, allegory and legend in their stories. Indeed, as a cursory reading of Philo will show you, the 'meaning' was far more important than the 'history'. The gospels are so thick with meaning, metaphor and allegory - they are composed out of pre-existing Old Testament (and possibly Greek) legend - if there is any historical content in them it is very hard to discern and entirely speculative. What's more probable: the gospels were written to convey deep 'religious truth' and are completely true in the history, or the gospels were written to convey deep 'religious truth' and are not meant to be read literally. The second is by far the most probable.
9. I display soaring arrogance? It is you who blankly said Mohammed is wrong (and questioned his sincerity!) - it is you who said we should look to 'scripture' for our morality (despite the Old Testament's violence and genocide). Anyone who can single out just one set of religious books as authoritative while dismissing the whole of the rest of human religious history is showing an awesome level of conceit. You have no idea what my 'worldview' is - I have only expressed by distrust of the gospels as being historically reliable. I do not consider myself a 'new atheist', however I do regard myself and intellectually and morally honest which is why I take issue with your view on the historicity of the bible and your position on Hell.
10. Thank you. In fact all students of Greek were taught this way of writing. Don't you find it just a bit convenient that many stories in the gospel follow the same story lines, in the same order and the same use of language as some of Homers, yet as it appears with just the location and names changed? That to me smacks of what I've been saying - that its the meaning that's important, not the historicity. After all, it would be a bit queer if the gospels were the only books of the period to treat both with equal value!
My final two paragraphs could have been written by any critic of Christianity at any time in history. I have read more Christian theology than I have read Dawkins, so I don't get my lead from him. Now, of course, you can attack the messenger or you can attack the message. I see in this instance you chose to attack the former. So who's getting frustrated?
If any one is reading this, Hello! You have given an argument Matthew - but not really many satisfactory ones in my opinion, and what you have chosen not to argue is interesting too. You dismiss other holy books, yet not your own. You cite internal evidence within your own books but not others – both intellectually dishonest. And, based on this dishonest foundation, you believe you have the authority to teach that hell, perhaps the most evil of man-made doctrines, is real.
If anyone reading this is interested in a reading list, I would suggest getting your hands on an NRSV apocrypha and reading a number of 2nd temple books, for example Jubilees, Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach, The Book of Enoch, Tobit, Esdras, and a number of Dead Sea Scrolls including the War Scroll, the Thanksgiving Hymns, 11Q Melchizedec, The Community Rule and the Damascus Document. If you want to see the smooth curve of evolution from Judaism to Christianity these books will show you. They bridge the gap between the old and new testaments and are not seen as Scripture by Christians today for very good reason - they provide blueprints for the God-Man the historical Rabbi Jesus was transformed into.
| | | | philippa (Guest) | 23/01/2011 20:11 | Phew guys! I'm very glad Jesus said we could come like little children or there'd be no hope for the likes of me.
| | | | Terence Cooper | 24/01/2011 11:19 | None of us can know what is absolutely right or absolutely wrong - the glass through which we see darkly prevents it.
What we can say is that we choose to personally adopt a particular model and treat it as truth and let it affect how we live. Scientists do it, Christians do it, and Muslims do it.
The Quakers put it nicely: "Do you respect that of God in everyone though it may be expressed in unfamiliar ways or be difficult to discern? Each of us has a particular experience of God and each must find the way to be true to it. When words are strange or disturbing to you, try to sense where they come from and what has nourished the lives of others. Listen patiently and seek the truth which other people's opinions may contain for you. Avoid hurtful criticism and provocative language. Do not allow the strength of your convictions to betray you into making statements or allegations that are unfair or untrue. Think it possible that you may be mistaken." Advices & Queries, para 17.
| | | | Kevin Algar (Guest) | 31/01/2011 16:30 | @Thomas 1,There are a great many more books with, in your opinion with better and more probable explanations it’s just that you can’t cite any can you?
2, The differences authenticate them as eye witness accounts because they obviously were not merely copying from each other.
3, They were not all looking to the resurrection of the dead at the end of the age. If that was the case the sect of the Sadducees wouldn’t exist.
4, Firstly the difference between forgiving and saying someone is forgiven is being pedantic about the semantic detail to the extreme. If someone has the authority to forgive sins then logic would dictate that they also have the power to do so. Such hair splitting about semantics would make virtually every sentence ever spoken or written by anybody meaningless.
5, Wrong.
6, The fact that the fish are mentioned in the other gospels settles it.
7, We have some of the earliest copies of the gospels all the early copies of the Koran were destroyed. Any Muslim who knows the history of their faith would confirm this. Even secular scholars agree that Matthew’s gospel is an eye witness account. As Matthew said, the reason there is so much fierce criticism of the Gospels is that to admit to their authenticity and coherence is to open the door to the one whose personality pulsates in every page: Jesus Christ.
8, see 7.
9, You display a souring arrogance. Are you saying Mohammed was right? The Old Testament does not teach genocide. Of course you will not accept this position because it does not fit comfortably within your atheistic world view. It is much better for you to believe that the God of Israel is a blood thirsty vengeful god who commands mass murder. Therefore it is pointless looking into the Hebrew words used and the context they are in. 10, They were using already established literary techniques. So did Tacitus, so your point is?
| | | | Thomas Newton (Guest) | 01/02/2011 18:37 | 1. How about these for starters - I read these over the past 2 years or so... Jesus, a revolutionary Biography by John Dominic Crossan Jesus: Nativity - Passion - Resurrection by Geza Vermes Meeting Jesus Again for the First Time by Marcus Borg The Jesus Dynasty by James Tabor Resurrection: Myth or Reality? by John Shelby Spong The First Messiah: Investigating the Savior Before Jesus by Michael O Wise Messiahs and Resurrection by Israel Knohl The Messiah Before Jesus by Israel Knohl From Jesus to Christ: The Origins of the New Testament Images of Jesus by P Fredriksen The Homeric Epics and the Gospel of Mark by D R MacDonald Jesus, Interrupted by Bart Ehrman Who Wrote the New Testament?: The Making of the Christian Myth by Burton L. Mack How Jesus Became Christian by Barrie Wilson Miracles in Greco-Roman Antiquity: A Sourcebook by Wendy Cotter C.S.J Liberating the Gospels: Reading the Bible with Jewish Eyes by John Shelby Spong
2. Not necessarily so at all. Perhaps they didn't want to look like they were blatantly copying? or perhaps they heard a different rumor than someone else. There's no way you can say the resurrection stories can have been eye witnesses as they differ considerably.
3. OK, not the Sadduccees. But the Essenes (mainstream and qumranites) and Pharisees were, and they made up the bulk of the religious groups.
4. Look up the Son of Man in the book of Enoch, you'll see that in his name the people are saved yet the Son of Man in Enoch is not God. So semantics is important. Didn't Jesus say he drove out demons by the finger of god - notice god is 'working through him' - not that he IS god.
5. Most 'critical' scholars do put Mark at around 68-70
6. These fish are post resurrection unlike the others. These fish are specifically noted as 153 in number. If you don't believe the Pythagorean symbolism check this out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vesica_piscis Note also other symbolic numbers in the gospels - such as the Dove, in greek gematria = 801. Alpha = 1, Omega = 800. So there's your god as alpha and omega descending on jesus as a dove. Jesus = 888 a highly significant number knows as the plenitude of the ogdoads - there are many more...
7. Secular scholars do not agree that Mark is an eye witness account. The Koran has no bearing on my point which is that you can't use the bible to authenticate itself any more than you can the Koran. If anyone were to 'admit to the gospels authenticity' they would, in order to preserve any intellectual honesty, have to admit to every ancient religious text as plausible. Now I bet you're not going to admit to that are you?
8. See 7.
9. Souring or soaring? I prefer soaring personally. I'm saying that if you were intellectually honest you would have to approach all religious texts in the same way - so you can't dismiss the night flight on a winged horse, or Perseus's birth of a god, (nor Caesars for that matter). And, Yes, Jehova/Jesus in the old testament did (if you believe it of course - which I don't!) sanction the deaths of millions. If you don't believe me check this out: http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2006/08/how-many-has-god-killed.html (I'm sure you could argue with some, but really you have no hope with most of it!)
10. My point is that if it can be shown that even basic stories were often made up, or were written to fit a prior objective, and that, to most Christians, every other book claiming miracles is made up, then the probability is that the gospels were made up too.
After all, can it really be true that out of the tens of thousands of gods man has invented only yours is true? That out of the thousands of 'holy books' written only yours is true?
No. That would be silly, wouldn't it?
| | | | craig hutton (Guest) | 02/02/2011 18:15 | If i may add something your all right but your all wrong. What some of you may think is right others may not the only thing that i can add is that i dont think we will ever know the answer to any of these questions. i myself am as John stott is an anihalationalist but even then im still not sure that is right but does any of this really matter? my argument that i am strugging with at the minute in life (and some of you will have plenty to say about this and the back it up with scripture) however my argument is can ethics and theology co exist ?
| | | | Kevin Algar (Guest) | 02/02/2011 21:01 | @Thomas Newton 1, Those books are not ancient sources therefore they do not weaken the case for the gospels authenticity.
2. You are stating mere conjecture.
3. But the Saducees were there.
4. Look up the Son of Man in the book of Enoch, you'll see that in his name the people are saved yet the Son of Man in Enoch is not God. So semantics is important. Didn't Jesus say he drove out demons by the finger of god - notice god is 'working through him' - not that he IS god.
5. Most 'critical' scholars do put Mark at around 68-70
6. Yes and concerning the two feeding with bread and fishes, in Hebrew numerology one set of numbers corresponds to the Jews and the other set of numbers corresponds to the gentiles. Eventually one should work out that everything is to precise for someone to make it all up.
7, and 8, I can’t be bothered to argue.
9. You don’t want the Old Testament explained to you so I won’t waste my time. I also won’t mention how many theists were martyred during the years of atheist communism in eastern Europe either. The plain facts could wreck your entire atheist ‘faith’
10. When faced with the evidence such probability disintegrates.
| | | | Thomas Newton (Guest) | 03/02/2011 10:43 | 1. I didn't say they were! I said there are better explanations, that's all. Ones that don't rely on hocus pocus, magic and miracle.
2. So are you. It's all conjecture as there are no independent sources. As I've said all along. But what's more probable - a dying and resurrecting god-man born from the union of a god and a mortal - or something more mundane...
3. So what? What does that prove?
4. I said that
5. I said that too
6. Hardly - whats more probable? Someone wrote it with the symbolism in mind, or god did it?
7/8. There's nothing to argue
9. I have no 'atheist faith' (whatever that means), I just don't believe in your version of god and I don't think the arguments stand scrutiny. I'm sure you could argue that the Israelites didn't 'get' god like you christians do, you could argue anything. But if you only pick and choose the bits of the OT you like the sound of you're not being intellectually honest.
10. But there isn't evidence, as you well know.
| | | | Alan Fisher | 03/02/2011 11:43 | This article has generated a full and lively debate, and correspondence is now finished - Editor
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